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Automation and the Future of Economics/Jobs (Spin Off of the AI thread)

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138 comments, last by warhound 6 years, 5 months ago

Yes, it does.  Government can collect taxes to pay for the government.  They cannot seize the private property of one citizen and give it too another.  A corporation is an "individiual citizen" within the law and with regard to individual rights.  When it comes to constitutional rights a corporation is "an individual citizen".  The 4th Amendment prevents government from seizing the property of one citizen and giving it too another, which is exactly what Obamacare was.

This is no different than if you were ordered to give $100 per month to the president's brother, or Haliburton.  I've been saying all along that Ike has the solution to this problem, and that we should just pass a law identical to Obamacare except that everyone is required to give Haliburton $100 per month for life, a form of slavery called "indentured servitude", and if you refuse the government will take $1200 from you at tax time and give it to Haliburton.  Then we could just sit back and watch the leftists undo their mistake for us.

As Ike said... "If you can't solve a problem, enlarge it."  He really was a genius, wasn't he.  That's how he got his Civil Rights act passed.  He couldn't solve the problem, so he enlarged it... which took the form of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.  

"I wish that I could live it all again."

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Hm, so government can collect taxes from citizens in order to buy missiles from Raytheon, because the protection of the US soil is considered part of "general welfare", but suddenly it can't collect taxes from citizens in order to buy medical care, is that it?

I mean, this is how it goes:

1) Joe is taxed and part of his money goes in order to buy a Raytheon missile : OK!
2) Joe is taxed and part of his money goes in order to buy a Hitachi MRI machine: NOT OK!

National defense is the #1 priority of government, it's primary duty and reason for existence.  So, obviously, taxes pay to support the main reason for having a government in the first place.  And the stronger a nation is, the less like there is to be a war to begin with.  

"The most effective means of preserving the peace is to prepare for war." - George Washington

Hospitals are private entities, not a part of government.  If healthcare were a part of government, you'd get inferior healthcare to that provided by private entities.  Research would slow to a crawl by comparison.  Etc.  And, of course, as private entities government cannot command citizens to turn their property over too them.  I should also mention that I have one of the most serious medical conditions known to medical science, and need healthcare more than most other people.  So it's not like I am just being thoughtless and not thinking about people with serious issues who need medical services, I am one of them.

"I wish that I could live it all again."

@Kavik Kang not to sound harsh, but we aren't debating your game... @mikeman asked a simple question ("What do you believe defines a Communist government?") and your response was "read the 300 page lore to my game, it's in there". People interested in your game are reading it, props to them. We aren't talking about Communism in the framework of your game. I mean, if I asked you what defines a Democratic government, or a Fascist government, or a dictatorship, or any definition, I'm not expecting a 300 page lore piece that relates to your game. The whole point of a definition is that it's a short statement. A definition is supposed to be a statement man.

If you don't want to post that or can't, then don't...just don't expect anyone to read 300 pages of, well, anything really, on an Internet forum.

34 minutes ago, mikeman said:

It is though a fine example of the knee-jerk reactions a large segment of the American population has.

I mean, discussing idealized plans for a benevolent "machine communism" is all fine, but in the present time you guys can't even discuss universal healthcare without 5 of 10 at least going "this is 'Merica, not Soviet Russia!" :D

Which brings us back to reality - whatever change will happen, it will not happen by all the peoples of the Earth coming together and agreeing on a rational plan that benefits everyone. There will be fierce clashes of interests first, and 2nd, a large amount of the irrational - people that would actually benefit from said plan will reject it because of other prejudices.

I don't disagree with you. I myself didn't identify with notions of universal healthcare, etc. until fairly recently tbh, so I understand the knee jerk reactions that people have. I don't think capitalism is necessarily broken, I just think it isn't equipped to handle mass automation really. UBI could work, but only to a point. It's a good start though.

 

One other thing I wanna say is do people have alternatives? I don't mean this in a demeaning way, but legitimately, do people have alternatives to what I've proposed?

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

>>Hospitals are private entities, not a part of government. 

Neither is IBM or Amazon. I don't see you complaining about tax-payers money going to them in order to provide cloud services to CIA. By what right you take $100 from me and give to Jeff Bezos, man? 4th Amendment?

The opening timeline of the PDU is more real history than it is my game.

There are only three basic forms of government.  Some kind of king, a republic, or communism.  These are the only three basic forms of government that have ever been conceived by man.  Fascism is not a form of government, it is simply the belief that "If I don't like it, then you shouldn't be allowed to do it."  A "dictatorship" is just a modern term for "king".

What today is called the "right" are those who honor the legacy of the republics of Greece, Rome, and the United States.  Alexander the Great, Marcus Aurelius, and George Washigton.

What today is called the "left" are those who honor the legacy of the Germany, Russia, and China.  Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Adolph Hitler, and Mao Zedong.

Or, you could support some type of king.  These are the only three basic forms of government known to the human species.  All governments fall into one of these three categories.

Just now, mikeman said:

>>Hospitals are private entities, not a part of government. 

Neither is IBM or Amazon. I don't see you complaining about tax-payers money going to them in order to provide cloud services to CIA.

The CIA is a part of the national defense structure, so no, as that is government's primary responsibility and primary reason for existing.  If you want to stay on the "the people who protect me are bad and evil" line you will keep getting the same answer.  Defense is the primary, most important, place for tax dollars to go.  When the enemy horde comes charging over the hill, either you have a bigger and better horde or you die.  Or become a slave.  It really is that simple.

"I wish that I could live it all again."

6 minutes ago, Kavik Kang said:

The opening timeline of the PDU is more real history than it is my game.

There are only three basic forms of government.  Some kind of king, a republic, or communism.  These are the only three basic forms of government that have ever been conceived by man.  Fascism is not a form of government, it is simply the belief that "If I don't like it, then you shouldn't be allowed to do it."  A "dictatorship" is just a modern term for "king".

What today is called the "right" are those who honor the legacy of the republics of Greece, Rome, and the United States.  Alexander the Great, Marcus Aurelius, and George Washigton.

What today is called the "left" are those who honor the legacy of the Germany, Russia, and China.  Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Adolph Hitler, and Mao Zedong.

Or, you could support some type of king.  These are the only three basic forms of government known to the human species.  All governments fall into one of these three categories.

You're conflating "types of government" with "economic system".

Let me remind you that in Greece and Rome, Democracy and Republic co-existed with slavery. So did in the USA, for that matter.


What would you call a Republic where the means of production(in the case of this thread, the robots) were common property? 

9 minutes ago, Kavik Kang said:

The opening timeline of the PDU is more real history than it is my game.

There are only three basic forms of government.  Some kind of king, a republic, or communism.  These are the only three basic forms of government that have ever been conceived by man.  Fascism is not a form of government, it is simply the belief that "If I don't like it, then you shouldn't be allowed to do it."  A "dictatorship" is just a modern term for "king".

What today is called the "right" are those who honor the legacy of the republics of Greece, Rome, and the United States.  Alexander the Great, Marcus Aurelius, and George Washigton.

What today is called the "left" are those who honor the legacy of the Germany, Russia, and China.  Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Adolph Hitler, and Mao Zedong.

Or, you could support some type of king.  These are the only three basic forms of government known to the human species.  All governments fall into one of these three categories.

The CIA is a part of the national defense structure, so no, as that is government's primary responsibility and primary reason for existing.  If you want to stay on the "the people who protect me are bad and evil" line you will keep getting the same answer.  Defense is the primary, most important, place for tax dollars to go.  When the enemy horde comes charging over the hill, either you have a bigger and better horde or you die.  Or become a slave.  It really is that simple.

Right, so what you are saying is that, you can indeed tax Joe and hand over his money to a private entity like Amazon, as long as this is considered a responsibility of the government. For some reason though I can't really identify, buying big sticks in order to defend the Joe from foreign enemies is governmental responsibility, while buying medicine in order to defend Joe from the flu is not.

Communism is not an economic system, it is a form of government.  You are the one who is making that mistake.

What does the fact that, until very recently in history, slavery existed throughout the world have to do with any of this?

There could not be "common property" in a nation that had not been corrupted by communism...

“Democracy is indispensable to socialism.” - Vladimir Lenin

Amazon?  What are you talking about?  No, that would be the same thing.  Amazon is a private entity, not a part of the government.

It's a matter of basic principles of freedom.  The constitution comes first.  Government cannot seize your property and turn it over to another private citizen.  A corporation is a "private citizen".  Raytheon, for example, is a part of the military industrial complex, they are essentially a part of the military.  Not civilian.

"I wish that I could live it all again."

"Indispensable" means "absolutely necessary/vital".

You're against democracy now?


>>Amazon?  What are you talking about?  No, that would be the same thing.  Amazon is a private entity, not a part of the government.

What are you talking about? CIA recently made a deal with Amazon Web Services.

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/amazon-web-services-launches-secret-region-2017-11?r=US&IR=T

But that was just a random example...I'm not sure I get your point here, I mean, of course they're buying services and equipment from private entities with tax money, what else are they going to do? Build their own PCs and Operating Systems too? I'm pretty sure part of the tax money goes in order to buy Cheetos/Cokes/Snickers or whatever for CIA employees too :D 

 

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